The episode provides insights into the challenges faced by the counseling profession in addressing trauma and mental health needs, especially during the COVID-19 pandemic. The guests also emphasized the importance of mental health literacy, the evolving landscape of mental health services, including telehealth and virtual sessions, and the holistic approach required to address trauma and systemic issues.
(Recorded December 2023)
The discussion provided insights into the challenges counselors face, including the increased demand for mental health services and the swift rise of telehealth. The guests emphasized the importance of a holistic approach to trauma, addressing not only individual treatment but also systemic issues contributing to it.
Listeners will gain an understanding of the need for mental health literacy and the role of counselors in fostering it. The conversation also touched upon the significance of professionalism in virtual counseling sessions, ensuring quality care irrespective of the medium. A key theme was the need for representation and advocacy in mental health within the Black community.
This episode promises to offer valuable insights into the evolving landscape of the counseling profession and the holistic, systemic approach required to effectively address trauma and mental health needs in today's world.
RESOURCES:
CTIPP HOSTS:
GUESTS:
#TransformTrauma is a Campaign for Trauma-Informed Policy and Practice (CTIPP) podcast. We’re building a national movement that integrates community-led, trauma-informed, resilience-focused, and healing-centered prevention and intervention across all sectors and generations through coalition-building, advocacy, and policymaking. Learn more at CTIPP.org.
00:00:01
Hello and welcome to another episode of the Transform Trauma Podcast, brought to you by the campaign for Trauma-Informed Policy and Practice, or CTIPP. And on behalf of CTIPP this time, Whitney and Jesse. And we're really looking forward to being in community and conversation today as we have with us special guests. Shawn Boyens, who is the Chief Executive Director of the American Counseling Association, and Carla Atkinso-Johnson, who's a professor in the Department of Counselor Education and Counseling Psychology at Western Michigan University. And, of course, these titles also stand among many meaningful accomplishments in both cases, which you can read more about in the episode description. And so, as we welcome you both, we want to dive right in. As we know, there's a lot of wisdom you have to share. And so let's begin by speaking at just a high level about where there are intersections between the counseling profession and this multifaceted vision of a trauma-informed world that CTIPP and so many others are working together to realize. So in short, we know that individual-level, evidence-informed treatment is an absolutely vital piece of the puzzle of helping our society collectively be holistically healthy and well. And that especially means supporting expanded and equitable access to trauma-specific interventions for people with lived experience. And yet, we also know that systemic and structural transformation really does demand us to zoom out a little bit and look beyond the individual context. So just wondering if you can share, particularly for those in our audience who don't sit in these counseling roles, a bit about what counselors really do and how the profession fits into the broader mental health continuum that supports individual and collective well-being. And I'll hand it off to either of you who wants to get us started?
00:02:09
Why don't you jump in and get us started on that one?
00:02:12
Yes. Of course. You know, it's interesting. As you were talking, I was thinking about how to count professional counselors fit into the overall aspect of helping in general. Right. Because we have clinical social workers, we have psychiatric nurses, psychologists, and psychiatrists. And I think just in general, it's that whole developmental perspective that professional counselors bring from their training and also from the historical aspect of who they are and where we started. When we're looking at trauma-informed care, I think the same aspect moves to that is that the overall training from a developmental perspective incorporates and and assumes that there are going to be different ways in which individuals respond to horrific events in their life. Not that there's one template of what is trauma, and there's also not one template of how one responds to trauma. And so I think that fits that, that that niche that we kind of provide as a professional counselor is all the training has to do with counseling. It's not really counseling, a specialization in an overall discipline, like possibly social work, where you get into, you know, the whole notion of responding to the needs of human beings in general. And then there is a specialization of a clinical practice. All of what we do, particularly in clinical mental health counseling, is a clinical practice. And the training encompasses that from a developmental perspective. I'll let Shawn add the CEO aspect of that. And then there's anything else then I can jump in after that.
00:03:56
Yeah, I think it's interesting as well when we think about trauma-related issues, they're happening more and more in this country, many of which are centered around gun violence, certainly impacting children in school. And one of my observations has been when these issues happen, unfortunately, I feel like we're becoming much more desensitized to it. But one of the things that we haven't done as good of a job about, certainly when these issues pop up lights, camera, action and all of the news media and all of the attention is, you know, kind of shown on the school or the community or the parents, and there's a little bit of conversation that happens. What I haven't seen, though, is when the cameras and the lights go away, counselors are the ones that are still there, you know, whether it is someone who is specifically trained in trauma-related counseling or school counselors, they are there to still support the communities in need. And people think. Because the cameras are gone. Oh, the issue is fixed and people are fine. But we know that these things linger for a very long time, sometimes years. So I think that part of the conversation needs to start happening more so that we can appreciate that these things have a ripple effect. And counselors tend to be at the front line addressing these issues in communities, because it's it's just not that easily fixed. I mean, we wish it could be almost like an episode of a TV show, but we know it's not. And then it just continues to build and build when we know that there's a shortage of counselors, and when this mental health crisis that we're facing continues to grow. So it's a complicated issue. But that's something that I've been paying close attention to. And, you know, preparing ACA to kind of step in to call that out a little bit more because it does need to be talked about.
00:05:51
I would just add that you're right about Shawn, the school counselor, the marriage and family counselor, as well as the clinical mental health counselor, how everybody has their way of looking at how people respond, but also systems that cause the trauma. And I think the two are most important to make sure that's in that conversation of trauma-informed, because I think, you know, what Shawn is saying is true. We're looking for when we hear of police brutality and when we look at shootings in schools, when we look at, you know, even what our own political climate is right now in the victimization of people who may suffer from that, we're looking for pathology as a result of it as opposed to resiliency. You know, how do people, you know, overcome or go through? Because not all people have pathological reactions to that. And then sometimes a reaction is deemed as a normal reaction, and it shouldn't be labeled as a pathological reaction to what has been done to them. And natural disasters is one, too, because, you know, all responses to a natural disaster is not the same, not the human response, but the system's response to that. Katrina has showed us that. And in other types of natural disasters that we have had. So from a professional counselor's point of view, it's that comprehensive approach that all hands are on deck when the cameras are off, and that it's not just the client that we're concerned about. And it's not just the self-care of the counselor, but it's also the counselor themselves. Could be a tool of harm just because of their own worldview perspectives. When it comes to this notion of trauma, that can also complicate the situation. So I think all of that has to be looked at.
00:07:51
Both of your like responses there. And there's so much to unpack. I'm so excited for the conversation. Before I ask the next question, Carla, especially some of your responses reminded me of Whitney, some of the conversations that we've had about your own professional experience, and the necessity to, yes, support people at an individual level while also supporting systemic change and transformation. Because if we are just preparing people to continue to move forward in an unjust world, then there is there is lacking a comprehensive solution in that. And Carla, like Whitney, I want to give you time to expand about that better if you would like to. But also, Carla, just appreciate you bringing up how the a lot of the responses are not pathological. We see normal, responsive, normal responses to abnormal circumstances or events that then need support and healing. We need to create conditions of support and empowerment and safety for folks in order to move forward. And so a lot of your responses, just so excited to move deeper. Whitney, before I ask the next question about ACA specifically and the work that they're doing, I don't know if you want to add anything on to that.
00:09:06
I think you captured it beautifully. Right. It's such a this. And when we really look at what we're what we're trying to accomplish here, and I think that's been beautifully encapsulated. And so yeah Jesse take it away. Awesome.
00:09:18
So Shawn, can you just tell us more about ACA members and Carla as well and what the association does to support their needs?
00:09:27
Absolutely. So the American Counseling Association is the largest professional organization representing professional counselors and students, and we are a membership-based organization. So we provide members with an opportunity to not only build community with each other, but we advocate on their behalf. There are issues that impact the counseling community in ways that a lot of people don't think about. For example, you know, last year the profession had a huge win. And. Working to ensure that counselors are included in Medicare reimbursement, which then makes mental health services available to many more people. But then councilors are being included in reimbursement that they had not been included in previously. And this is something that the profession in ACA specifically, along with some other partner organizations, marriage and family therapy being one of them. They've been advocating for this for decades, and that was a huge win for the organization. One of the other top priorities for the association right now is what we're referring to as the counseling compact. And that has to do with license portability. So, for example, and it's not just with counselors, there are professions that unfortunately, you know, having a driver's license, you can go from state to state, right, and drive without having to get a whole new license. Well, and many of the health-related and the helping professions, you have to get a new license in a different state if you want to practice in that state. So if you think about, you know, just people being mobile, clients moving around, if someone's in the military, you know, they may need to move around. And just the sheer number of licenses that a person may need to have in order to just practice and do what they love. So we're working to get all 50 states to enact the counseling Compact. We are moving fast and furious. We have 31 states that have signed on thus far. So that's kind of encouraging and we'll keep at it. But we also provide counselors with opportunities to expand their educational kind of just staying up to date with their licensing and meeting their CS, their continuing education requirements to keep their licenses and doing that in a variety of ways. We have an annual conference that brings people together in person. Next year's conference in 2024 will be in New Orleans, so we look forward to that celebration. New Orleans is a great city to host a conference. And then, of course, we have lots of online offerings to make it accessible to people. We also have career services that we make available to students as we prepare them for entering the profession and practice whether or not they choose to go into clinical practice or if they want to, you know, go on to earn their PhD and, you know, kind of maybe become a counselor educator, which is the space that that Carla is in. So ACA does a lot. And one of the things that is a priority for me is to really elevate the profession so that counseling becomes much more recognizable alongside psychologists, alongside social workers, and psychiatry, because they play valuable role just like all of the others do. And ACA continues to, you know, kind of do what we need to do to support the counseling profession, but certainly paying close attention to the needs of members and those who belong to the association. And Carla probably has some other perspectives to add. She's on the membership side of things. I'm, you know, on the staff side. So my viewpoint is a little different. But it'd be great to hear what Carla has to say about being being a member and a volunteer for the association.
00:13:06
Thank you. Thank you Shawn. One of the things you mentioned is the counseling compact. And thank you, because one of the things just the other day, there was a person I knew that moved out of state and said something like, you know, it's too bad I can't keep my same professional counselor that I had because I felt my counselor not only got me, but my counselor looked like me and my counselor. You know, I liked how the session went. And then now I live in a place where there not a lot of counselors of color in particular or the training that they have. And I can't seem to I have to find somebody else. And so what the counseling compact, the vision of that, exactly what is needed for such a time is this, you know, where, you know, people are moving. You know, COVID has actually introduced this notion that, you know, your job may not be secure. Right? And we've been there before as a society, but now you may have to move. You may have to return to work, but your work, your physical place might have changed. And and so we have all of that going on. And we really want to address this issue of diversity in terms of reach of mental health. Then the whole notion of the compact makes makes a lot of sense for everyone. I do want to say on this side of the the equation, as a person who is a licensed clinician in two states in Ohio and also Michigan, but also a person who trains professional counselors. And so it's that training piece that I think is distinct, is distinctive. 900 programs are accredited by Crep, which is the Council for accreditation, Counseling and Related Educational Programs. Why that's important is called a standard of practice. And what that means is that when you are working with a licensed professional counselor and they're coming out of that lens, you should expect. And that's what I train in the community. So as. Counselor is not only important that I talk with clients, but I also inform a community of people that when you go seek a counselor, they should have these skills. When you go see a licensed professional counselor, they should have this knowledge base. And I point them to a document of what that knowledge base looks like. And then they go in and they start asking those questions. You know, have you received multicultural counseling training? Do you work with people who look like me? What about this notion of major depressive disorder? What does that mean? What type of training do you have? And so I think it's not only to inform us as a profession, but also to inform the community when I mean the community, everyone, but also the community in which I have it. My community is largely African-American, where I live, where I my research is focused in that area. And so standards of practice, I think, is important in what we provide as a profession and also to those that are taking part of this counseling compact, the conference. One thing I want to say about that, that is important. The American Counseling Association's World Conference gives current counselors, not those that have graduated, those that have been out in the field for a while, who might not have had that multicultural training. As you know, you're in social work, Whitney, and if you've been out for ten years, 20 years, you might not have had a class that, as they say, is comprehensive as it should be. Now, that's actually recognizing the history of oppression and in white supremacy and all those things now that weren't talked about as much in courses that are very much talked about for the most part. Um, and now and so the conference is where current counselors could come and also get a reboot of or new knowledge of how to deal with situations that are occurring right now and looking at themselves because techniques and practice around crisis in in in also, trauma is one part of the equation. You can't teach it to make it go away. Practice is not going to help you perfect. It is the internal way in which you look at yourself and others that inform practice and techniques. So that's a place where you have a lot of presentations available by people who are very knowledgeable in the field, often counselor educators, professors and researchers that have taken the time to look at this work and try to help current counselors be able to deliver culturally responsive practice in the community as well. Wow.
00:17:37
And I so appreciate both of you really shining a spotlight on these concrete resources and supports and really rich opportunities there are to support community and success and lifelong learning among counselors because yeah, you can really get pretty stagnant or fall behind what our emerging and evolving needs without organizations like the ACA and others really being intentional about setting those standards forth both in education and continuing education. And oh man, you bring up so many important concepts. The compact is such a prominent and important piece of this work right now. And I know we're probably going to circle back to telehealth in a bit. But as you were all speaking, one of the things I was thinking about is the ways that we support our workforce, right, in terms of these concrete areas where we know that action is really needed so people can stay well and show up with intentionality so they can apply what they've learned and compassionate and ethical and responsible ways. And so, you know, we know that the very empathy and I would say, open-heartedness that makes many counselors really excellent at their jobs also tends to make them more vulnerable to experiencing a whole spectrum of impacts, of doing the work, both maybe not so healthy, like compassion fatigue, burnout, secondary trauma, moral distress, and also beautiful ones. Right? Vicarious resilience, vicarious post-traumatic growth, compassion, satisfaction, moral courage. And I'm just curious to know what are some of the factors that the two of you notice contributing to the barriers to well-being that you've been hearing about, based on where your positions and also what steps do you feel are really needed on the part of our organizations, our systems, our more macro level institutions and professional organizations like the ACA to support expanding diverse and healthy and resilient and well-supported workforce.
00:19:48
Carla, I'll jump in and then you can certainly add to it because you'll probably have a different perspective. But one of the things I think we can all agree to is that with. The COVID pandemic that kind of flipped things on its head, and mental health certainly became front and center, more so than it ever has been, at least in my lifetime, and not just here in the United States, but globally. So then you kind of take a look at the people who are already in the profession that are trying to keep up with the demands of current clients, but now you have a whole new crop of people that need mental health services, and they can't get access to it. So for anyone in the helping professions, you know, continuing to give and give and give does lead to burnout. And, you know, ACA has certainly focused on counselor self-care. I mean, we actually have a book titled counselor Self-care that we really want counselors to try to carve out that time for themselves. You know, this year, I was fortunate enough to, you know, go to conference in Toronto, Canada, with the president of the association, doctor Kimberly Frazier. And one of the things that we had agreed to, to focus on was to really demonstrate our appreciation for self-care. So we decided to do a Peloton ride together, and we did it during Counseling Awareness Month, and we invited members to join us for the Peloton ride. It was on a Saturday afternoon, and it was just really fun to have the CEO and the president of the association kind of demonstrating, you know, self-care. In that sense. I am inspired and and optimistic, though, because when you take a look at some data, Carla mentioned Craig Krebs. So we looked at some CRP data. And from 2014 to 2022, there's been an 80% increase in enrollment. And these are just K-accredited programs. So think about all of the programs that are not cake rep accredited. So there is a huge influx of people that are coming into the profession. It's going to take a while to kind of get them up and running of course, but at least that pipeline is looking strong and and good. It's it's going to be required because no one profession or no one organization is positioned to solve this crisis that we have. We have to work with our sister or brother organizations, the American Psychological Association, the National Association of Social Workers, and the many others that exist out there to collaborate, to come up with solutions that are going to be sustainable and that will help those providing the mental health services, but then also providing access to these helping professionals, because this is not going anywhere anytime soon.
00:22:47
You know, it's amazing. Shawn touched on so many things. I have to say, I was not on that Peloton ride. His self-care is Peloton. I was shopping in Toronto, so like I said, we have diversity in terms of how we approach self-care. But one of the things, though, I think it's important to say, is that. How we look at being overwhelmed as a counselor also has so many different takes on that. In 1972, there were a number of counselors. At that time was what they called, but they represented so many different helping professions like what Shawn said. They represented the American Psychological Association, which these group of individuals now formed, the Association of Black Psychologists. They represented social work, but individuals of this group are now part of the Association of Black Social Workers and other groups that in 1972, we formed the Association of Multicultural Counseling and Development, that is a division of the American Counseling Association, fifth, over 50 years ago. The reason why I mentioned that is then we were talking about how do counselors take care of themselves when there are so few of them, so much the need just coming out of the civil rights movement, racial unrest in our society, and we have key professions at that time ACA, APA, the American Psychiatric Association that weren't dealing with the issues of poverty, the issue of racism, sexism. Heterosexism in the light during that time, but they had to do that too, and walk gum and everything and chew and walk at the same time, chew gum and walk at the same time and, and all the other things and, and still try to take care of themselves. So those conversations were happening then. Now we're dealing with all the things in our society. And then how does a counselor make sense of it all? What we're doing sometimes among counselor educators as professors, is that we have to also ask our students who come with Shawn mentions, we have a lot of people that are coming. We ask this question and we see things such as students are touched but may not be moved. And what that means is that they're coming. Oh, this is a wonderful time for me. I, you know, I want to be able to help. I want to be able to volunteer, but you're actually going to become somebody's clinician. So that means it's wanting to be moved. You see a situation, you know, that it's not just or you know it's not right or someone's not able to get mental health care. There's one thing to feel sorry for a person. There's another to be committed to trying to address and minimize the symptoms in relief of others. And how do you stand in the void through advocacy as a counselor, through the profession? So I would say it's the self-care also is important to know that you really want to do this. Why are you here? And to remember that before actually approaching the profession, remember that in your time of feeling overwhelmed and remember that you can't do everything. So how do you know for yourself? Which is what we talk about at ACA and also in our courses and the articles that we write in our journals and the American Counseling Association is, you know, the clarification as the clinician, but in, in, in your worldview perspective, and what help really means because I think I have to say this, there's there seems to be more of a conversation of self-care, not just in ACA, but also the other helping traditions, which now has become more important than actually some of the systemic issues that bring about all of the problems. Right. So I have this balance sometimes of, okay, self-care. How do you take care of yourself? Well, you know, if it's eight hours out of a day, then you got to figure out what you're going to be able to do. And then how do you refresh yourself to go into battle the second day, you know, and, and be able to carry this out as opposed to spending a lot of time on how we're going to be. Okay. So it's it's a it's an interesting time right now in the profession when you're a trainer, a professor and a clinician, and you've been around a little while and know that this isn't the first time that we've had unrest and, and a lot of things going on our society that needs counselors and, and you know, so at it's wanted to kind of put that out there.
00:27:27
Appreciate that so much Carla. Thank you. And it reminds me of Whitney, the article that you wrote in May around self-care and collective care, the need for, again, that comprehensive solution. And as self-care conversations emerge, it's critical. And we also need to take care of each other and be in community and continue to work at multiple levels to promote well-being. We talked about or both of you talked about sort of supply and demand and how there's increased demand. It sounds like there is also a strengthening pipeline, which is wonderful to hear. One of the responses to demand. Again, the pandemic changed the ways in which we had to orient and meet people where they were. But we have seen telehealth grow tremendously. Right. And there are a lot of pros diversity, accessibility. But but we also know that with that quick emergence and the quick responsiveness to the lockdown of the pandemic, there are also a variety of concerns such as limited guardrails and and maybe people taking on even more workload. And again, that contributing to burnout, which can have a variety of impacts on oneself in the profession as well as in sessions with individuals. Right. And so just curious and, and I know that there's a lot to this question and a lot to the answer, but how can we ensure that we work to build upon the strengths of the approach while also reducing the potential risks and harms?
00:29:05
You know, telehealth is an interesting phenomenon. You know, we it's interesting right before Covid hit, you know, we're as at a university, we're moving into e-learning and teaching online. And then now we have a clinic. And we have to pivot to be able to meet the needs of our clients. And I know Shawn will speak about from an ACA perspective of. All of the various ways as an organization. How we approach the training part of that is complex. You know, one is, is that it's the mechanics of how to do it. But then there is the contextual aspect that is the same context that we're dealing with when you're face to face and it goes back to the perception of you have if it's, you know, video, you have access to someone's home, whatever. However that's defined, you know, whether it's in a, a, a homeless shelter, for lack of a better word, if it's in a place or space that you're not familiar with or a community that you're not used to looking into, the other judgments that people were able to protect and the privacy that they have now becomes exposed to the clinician, whose perspective could be very limited. One sidebar I have to say on this notion of the increase of students, our new student in our increased student is not necessarily students of color, but white females. White females is kind of the new I wouldn't say the new, but is the emerging number of increase that we're starting to see, not just in counseling and in the profession, but in the American Counseling Association, but also when you're looking at other helping professions as well. I put that in there is because that's the lens that's being used sometime to look at whether or not that's a safe space, whether or not that's a person I can trust, whether or not I think that person is serious about when they said they had to miss their appointment because maybe their phone got cut off. Or maybe, however, telehealth is being defined because if you notice, I notice a phone often telehealth is often happening through an iPhone, not necessarily a computer, because we make assumptions or iPads. So all of these judgments I'm starting to hear as a professor and as a site supervisor, that we're having to make that are very much connected to the context of helping telehealth. That does not escape that. I think it increases that. So that is why in our courses, particularly for our clinical preparation courses, practicum and internship, we one have to teach students to conduct a telehealth session. But in there we have to address the same contextual issues that we have from face to face. But it's it's worse because they're starting to see more than possibly they're able to handle in our training and counseling is the multicultural training piece now has to broaden more in that clinical and supervisory domain than ever before.
00:32:13
So. Oh go ahead Shawn. Sorry.
00:32:14
Yeah. No no no I was just going to add a different perspective to all of what Carla shared. You know, sort of like a yes. And yeah, I think telehealth it's not new. Right. And I think what happened, though, big tech saw an opportunity to step into the space. So now you have you know, I think a lot of people when they think of health, it's this, you know, you may be sitting at a laptop and you're having a session with your counselor, your psychologist, your social worker, your therapist, however you want to define that or you're on your phone with it. What's happened is you have a generation that has grown up through social media, and they use their phones for everything, and they get their advice from TikTok. And there's also a layer of stigma that still exists around mental health. So if you're not comfortable saying, hey, I need to go talk to somebody, you don't want to talk to a parent, or you don't want to talk to a friend, you can log in to any number of apps and get some type of care, whether it's good quality care, we're not sure about. And it was something that kind of popped up early on in my tenure with ACA. There was a major issue that had to be addressed, and ACA stood up on behalf of counselors and had conversations with one of the owners of one of the app companies and kind of call them to the carpet on their practices. And as a result of that, we came up with a therapy app, decision making resource for people. And we also came up with another resource to help counselors that were faced with, do I sign on to provide counseling services with some of these app providers? Because a lot of times they don't realize that you're a contract employee. So if something goes south, whether it's an ethical issue or just kind of a practice issue, that someone wasn't prepared. Therefore. And then there's also the licensing issues, like are you actually practicing in the state where this person says they are, they may not be a regular client for you. How do you know? So lots of kind of issues that I don't think Big Tech thought about, but it's some of those unintended consequences that have impacted and not just counselors. You know, it's it's the helping professions that are now kind of front and center. And I wish that, you know, the professional organizations got together. And maybe we're a little more proactive in thinking about, let's create our own thing, whatever that would have looked like. Big tech is going to move faster. They have more resources. So it is what it is. And that train has left the station. So now I think to Carla's point, how are we preparing people that are entering the profession to deal with this major disruptor? Because there are people who are not going to want to step into a therapist's office because that's just not comfortable for them. I think it's becoming a little more okay when you have celebrities and athletes that have openly talked about their mental health challenges. So that's helping to break down the stigma. And I think going forward, you know, telehealth will be what it is. How do we as a profession and a community, make sure that people who want to consume service in that way, mental health service in that way, that they feel protected, that they feel informed, and that counselors, psychologists and other helping professionals also know what their responsibilities are ethically, how are they practicing and making sure that they are adhering to whatever the requirements are for their state licensure and that kind of thing. So for me, that's kind of where I'm focused. And then not to complicate it anymore. But artificial intelligence is popping up, right? It's all over the place. So ACA's board of directors met actually yesterday and approved a series of recommendations on how councils need to kind of prepare for artificial intelligences impact on how they're teaching, you know, students, how it is impacting clinical practice, and then also trying to provide recommendations and guidance for the public to understand, like, these are some of the things you need to think about if you are engaging with AI to get your mental health services. So we'll be publishing that soon. But that was something hot off the press that the board just approved.
00:36:54
You know Shawna wanted to also add to that artificial intelligence. The notion of research. You know that also is something that in terms of you know how quickly you know what is real and what is not I think may also impact us. Well one other thing would telehealth that I think to add to what Shawn is saying to is professionalism. A lot of my conversations with people in the community complain sometimes about the clinicians, and this is across the board, not just, you know, one profession, because we all kind of came together during telehealth. I received just as much information from APA, both APA's American Psychological Association and American Psychiatric Association and ACA and social work, because we're all trying to figure out, okay, who's doing what, how is this working? So this is where I see kind of the unity aspect of this. But one thing that we're hearing is that also for clinicians to realize it's not coffee hour at your house, right. And so when we're doing telehealth, you know, some are saying, look, my counselor was eating an apple, you know, dressed in a sweatshirt and jeans, sitting on their bed, you know, doing counseling. I can see all of that in their house. And I just didn't feel for what I was paying for the hour that I was really being respected. Right. Because there's a notion that sometimes that people don't have means. We assume that they because they, they think or perceive one can't afford it, that they dress down or they don't have or have a degree, a professionalism. So it's just those things that also we have to address on the side as access for one, but also what the quality of delivery that we're supposed to give and keeping the professional aspect there, even though it might not be in the office per se. But this virtual office also has to have a degree of professionalism as well.
00:38:48
Nice. I so appreciate both of you really speaking to the multi-dimensionality of this issue. That is inevitable, right? That technology will continue to grow. And so we really need to be thinking about these things. Just as a side note that I thought was quite interesting about the AI conversation. I'm so glad to hear that the organizations for the profession are on this, because the other day I saw I saw a cognitive behavioral therapy AI generator, which kind of made sense to me. But then I also saw an internal Family Systems AI generator, and I was I had a lot of feelings about it. Right? I was like, how does that work? And also what am I noticing in my body right now?
00:39:26
So I think about that. Right.
00:39:30
And I also appreciate you all speaking to the potentially predatory nature of some of these bigger online companies, right, where there have been some significant issues that you've uplifted that can compromise safety and trust for both clients and the counselors working through these and other telehealth platforms. And so I just really want to acknowledge that. I really appreciate how you've spoken to the importance of harnessing technology for social good, and also the importance of anchoring and cultural humility, regardless of the platform, whether you're in front of somebody or in front of a screen. And I'm noticing the time. And so I'm wondering if we maybe broaden out. And I invite you to speak a bit to just how you think about the ways that counselors are actively and intentionally responding to trauma in their individual actions, as well as, more broadly, how they're helping to inform solutions within their communities.
00:40:28
You want to take that one, Carla?
00:40:30
Sure. You know, from a journalist's point of view for the Journal of Multicultural Counseling Development, we have moved into doing a lot of virtual issues that make that are available to the public, because there's no point in doing research if it's only just us talking about it. You'd be surprised how many members of the community are quoting data stats. You know, it's on Twitter, you know, Black Twitter, it's on, you know, all kind of ways of communication about, you know, how disorders and situations impact others. So what can we do to make it available to the public? And with that, it is the conversations of our current situation, our current condition in mental health, not just a certain population of people, but individuals in general. So it is one making things that are available from our research, our advocacy. I find that professional counselors are doing a lot of grassroots community work, you know, as well, talking about programs for children, families, individual and individually advocacy within the agencies. So you find that besides just the counseling, but also, you know what our hours can, you know, conducive for people to come pro bono work ways in which that we can deal with reduced cost. And I think those are the things that we see counselors moving into now and then also the collective resistance. Right. And I think the previous editor-in-chief of our journal did a special issue on trauma in particular. It came right after the 2020, you know, year. Right. And then she talks about. We were the notion of having to be shelter in place, but then that's an individual aspect. But it never stopped us from the collective resistance that helped us to galvanize a movement right across all domains. I would say it's this rising of a collective resistance that we find counselors, professional counselors joining also with other helping professions in trying to address the needs of when we're dealing with children at the border. We were dealing with all of these traumatic types of situations that we're using our whole comprehensive selves to address it.
00:42:50
And I would would amplify that by saying there is a degree of mental health literacy that is still very much so needed. So how are we communicating outside of just our bubble of being a resource for counselors, whether or not, you know, the American Psychological Association is doing what they do, social workers doing what they do. It's very internally focused, as I like to say, we need to shift that and focus more externally to help educate people so that they are better informed about, like when we say trauma, what does that mean? Because it may mean different things to different people depending on how they have experienced certain things. So how do we ground in this is what we mean when we talk about trauma. And this is a resource for you, or this is how you can talk about it with your parents, or this is how you can talk about it with your children or a parent or grandparent or something like that. And that's some work that still needs to happen. And I think that, you know, with all of the work that, you know, Carla is doing with the journal, trying to make it more accessible, some of the stuff that ACA is doing, trying to just amplify the role of counselors in this mental health space, we're moving in that direction. But I think it needs to be more than just ACA. It needs to be many other professions. And even from the government's perspective, you know, there's more attention and more resources being allocated to mental health care. But we're still not educating people on how to talk about it in a way that is less intimidating. And of course, you know, removing the stigma. But in order for us to get there, we have to give people the language to use so that we can provide the assistance and also make people feel comfortable to come forward to say, I need help.
00:44:38
Well, I just a shout out to our CEO Shawn on this. One of the things I think since joining ACA, and also to Stacy Whitely, who is I'm not sure I'm going to mess up her title head of everything that has to do with marketing and and publishing for ACA. I think the getting us beyond just talking to a counselor audience has been extraordinary. I mean, we're for our work to be able and our conversations to show up in other professions, but also in mainstream media, you know, into magazines, into newspapers, into so all audiences can get a chance to see, you know, what's really pressing for us and our thoughts about it and what we would like to do or have done, and also questions we want to ask that gets into our research. You know, we should be researching societal problems and how we address mental health from that, from that lens and in that vantage point. So thank you, Shawn for that.
00:45:42
So very welcome.
00:45:44
Appreciate both of your responses there. And just to throw out CTIPP would love to be a partner in that work to you know continue to promote openness and conversations and then that key to collaboration. It's it's so important as we continue to advocate mobilize around policies, practices and broadly within community infrastructure, you all do such important work. Whitney Whitney said it earlier. We're now even closer to the end of time. And so with a little bit of an unfair like two-parter to to begin wrapping us up, you know, we just want to open it up for anything that's left on your hearts and minds that you want to share with us, or more importantly, our listeners to the podcast. We welcome that. And one thing that's come up a number of times in the conversation is the importance of representation. Right? My background is in education and we hear it there to representation matters. And so not to tell you what is on your hearts and minds, but I can hear that there is more conversation that needs to be had there that we may not be able to get to, but don't know if there's anything else there or any other topics or elements of the conversation. Before we wrap up that you want to share with the audience.
00:46:58
And I will chime in. Yeah, I will chime in and say, you know, this is a moment, especially for the black community related to mental health. And here's why. The four major mental health professional organizations are led by black men. You have me with American. Counseling, American Psychological, National Association of Social Workers, and the National Alliance on Mental Illness, all led by black men. We have come together, we have had conversations, and one of the questions that was posed to kind of help us figure out, like, what do we do with this moment? And it was, do we have a responsibility to provide access and focus on drawing more attention to issues, mental health issues that are impacting black males specifically, but then also in the black community, there's been no other time in history where you have people that look like us, that are in positions of authority and power to change the narrative, so we're committed to that. And it's an honor for me. You know, mental health has impacted my family personally. My mother suffered from schizophrenia. And it was interesting because that experience opened my eyes to how difficult it is to talk about mental health in the black community, because a lot of times their responses are stuff like, go talk to your pastor, and it's like, we know that that is there, but we have to get beyond that. So to now be in a position where I'm leading an organization that's doing the great work that HCA is doing is purpose driven work for me. And I think the same holds true for the other black men that are leading the other mental health organizations as well.
00:48:35
Thank you Shawn. Yes it is. It's an important time of our in our history. I would say my just be a little bit different from an academic side where we see nothing has changed very much. Most of the editors of journals that they would consider mainstream or white the literature then, which when multicultural counseling conversations are had now, are from perspectives of those that are not necessarily researched and facilitated by people of color. And in in all, I think various racial groups, I, I think who were who's teaching in the classroom of the professoriate are also white and female. And so I think as we continue to move down the line of what do we understand? What is counseling, what is therapy, how therapy should be done, the needs of clients. We look at the the DSM five and what is considered a depressive symptom, a symptom of anxiety is still normed on white American middle-class populations in numbers, although they may say the US census is the guideline. But that's not the norm of when you're trying to figure out what's wrong with people. So I think it is a very interesting phenomenon. But it's scary because after being in the discipline for 28 years, I'm not seeing the progress on the science side, as I would hope to see by now. But our problems and the whole notion of racial trauma and race and poverty are getting worse.
00:50:20
So appreciative of you.
00:50:21
Raising these important topics to bring consciousness to the real state of the landscape. Right? We have to get radically honest and tell the truth about both celebrating progress as well as the historical and ongoing harms in our field. And so I'm so grateful that you shone a spotlight on that with such transparency as it is through really talking about these things. That change is catalyzed, and we can disrupt that status quo and that beautiful rich. No. You know, as we wrap up, I'm feeling so confident that our listeners will find tremendous value in all of the richness that you shared today. And I know we at CTIPP are so deeply grateful for the time and insight you both generously provided today. And just thank you so, so much. It's been a pleasure.
00:51:12
It's been an honor. And thank you for having us.
00:51:15
Thank you. Thank you Shawn. Thank you everyone.